Custom NFC Antenna for Patch Kit?

[RilwanParticipant]

Hi there,

I will like to use the NFC Patch kit with the Samsung S4 phone. However, I require a larger (and more sensitive antenna). Can you design a 12″ X 12″ custom antenna for me to use with the kit. Can you design it to be super sensitive so that it can scan an NFC sticker that is about 1 – 2 inches away from it? Please let me know.

Thanks,
Rilwan

[RichardKeymaster]

Hi Rilwan, we can develop this custom solution for you. Our standard rate for this work is $150/hr and can get you a detailed quote based on your requirements. A 1-2 in read range is definitely achievable if the target tags are known and consistent. Read range is generally compromised when trying to read a wide variety of NFC tag sizes. More details shown in this video:

For a better understanding of how you tune our antennas for great tag scan performance in the 1-2in range, you can review this video:

You can post your custom build requirements here referencing this thread and we’ll email you a detailed quote within 1-2 business days.

[RilwanParticipant]

Hey Richard,

Any updates on the detailed quote? Will I receive it next Monday or Tuesday?

Thanks,
Rilwan

[RichardKeymaster]

I’m still waiting on the specific requirements you need to meet. After we spoke on the phone, I explained that I would need these questions answered in writing in order to prepare a quote that could meet your expectations. At this level of customization, it’s important to be specific as getting 1.5in vs 1in of extra read range could equate to thousands of dollars of extra engineering work. Here are the questions we discussed that I need from you:

– What are the precise dimensions and geometry of the target tags?
– What is the max tilt angle and range you seek when tag is held above scan surface?
– What is the precise dimensions and geometry of the scan surface?
– For surfaces larger than 10,752mm2, we will need to move to external readers. Connection with host device will be over Bluetooth. For surfaces larger than 17,010mm2 we will need to time divide this connection. What is the worst case read time you can afford once tag is placed in range?
– External readers will need USB power to operate. What power limitations do you have, if any?
– This design will be manufactured by hand unless quantities of over 1000 units are ordered. What expectations in terms of case design, materials, finish, weight and overall dimensions do you have?
– If external readers are used, you will need to integrate our Flomio SDK in order to connect to the solution. What NFC protocols do you require for your solution? UUID tag read only or full data block R/W?

thanks,
Richard

[RilwanParticipant]

Hey Richard,

I replied your email last week Wednesday with the details you mentioned above. Did you not get the email?? Please confirm. Or was the details provided in the email not sufficient?

If you did get the email and the details were not sufficient, whey didn’t you reply me? I wouldn’t have known that the details were not sufficient if I hadn’t checked with you this morning. That does not seem cool.

Rilwan.

[RichardKeymaster]

Hi Rilwan, sorry for the confusion but we didn’t receive anything (just checked spam folder). Did you send it to info@flomio.com ?? Please resend to this address or post responses on this thread.

Again our apologies for the miscommunication.
Richard

[RilwanParticipant]

Hi Richard,

I did send the emails to info@flomio.com last week. I’ve included the specs in this thread..

• The mat will be approximately 12” X 12”. It will be built from a total of seven card sized NFC readers distributed over the 12” X 12” space
• The mat will plug in directly into an NFC enabled Android device, so that the scanned NFC data is accessible to the Android phone.
o Alternatively, can you tell me what it will take to develop this mat so that it works with android devices that don’t have native NFC support?
• The mat will be powered via an external power source, preferably a wall socket.
• The mat will be capable of reading NFC tags from 1” to 3” inches away from its surface.
• The mat will be capable of reading NFC tags inclined at no more than 15 degrees along the plane of the mat.
• We need to be able to read the UUID of the NFC tag and read the full data block. There is no need to support tag writing.

Please provide a quote for a design that will meet each of the reading speed requirements:
1. We will like the reading speed to be no more than a quarter of a second
a. We understand that to meet this requirement, all seven card readers would need to be concurrently active.
2. We will like the reading speed to be no more than 1.5 seconds
a. We understand that this requirement will allow each of the seven card readers to be active every 1.5 seconds in a round robin manner.

Thanks,
Rilwan

[RilwanParticipant]

Hey Richard,

By the way, I want us to stay away from using Bluebooth. I will prefer a direct connection to the Android device via the ear bud jack or the mini usb port.

Thanks,
Rilwan

[RichardKeymaster]

Hi Rilwan, I’m still missing answers to some questions in order to properly come up with a solution for you. Here are my original questions with answers I’ve gathered from you thus far and ones I’m still missing in bold:

– What are the precise dimensions and geometry of the target tags?

– What is the max tilt angle and range you seek when tag is held above scan surface?
Max tilt angle of 15 degrees off and distance of 3in (76.2mm) from scan plane.

– What is the precise dimensions and geometry of the scan surface?
12in x 12in (304.8mm x 304.8mm)

– What is the worst case read time you can afford once tag is placed in range?
Quote #1) 250ms latency time.
Quote #2) 1500ms latency time.

– What power limitations do you have, if any?
One USB power connection.

– What expectations in terms of case design, materials, finish, weight and overall dimensions do you have?

– What NFC protocols do you require for your solution? UUID tag read only or full data block R/W?
NFC Type 2 protocol. UUID and data block read. No write support needed.

Lastly it’s worth noting that your requirement to avoid Bluetooth makes the solution exponentially more complicated and expensive. The other connection options like USB or audio jack have limitations that will likely make your use case impractical. For instance, he mini USB port on Android devices can’t operate in Host mode (driving 5V supply) while being charged. In other words, your Android device will need to drive the operation (and power) of the NFC mat accessory and therefore will not be able to to be plugged in itself. So you’ll need to recharge the Android device separate from your use case. (Tablets like Samsung Galaxy 10 tablet have extra USB ports to address this problem, but this is uncommon). The audio jack connection method is incapable of aggregating several reader connections so you will only be able to achieve Quote #2) 1500ms latency time. Furthermore, the audio drivers to support the audio jack connection will need to be supported going forward which is incredibly challenging across all devices and mobile OSs on the market. More on this here.

thanks,
Richard

[RilwanParticipant]

Hi Richard,

What are the precise dimensions and geometry of the target tags?

The NFC tag we are looking to use circular with a 25mm diameter. We are open to using a larger NFC tag, if it will reduce the cost to develop the mat.

Bluetooth option?
If it will be cheaper and as reliable as other options, then I will put bluetooth back on the table.

What expectations in terms of case design, materials, finish, weight and overall dimensions do you have?

We expect the mat to look like a flat plastic platform. It may have a 2-4 inch border all around it. The platform may be as 1/2 – 1″ thick. The “hot” spots where scanning occurs should be at the center of the platform. Let me know if you have any other questions.

On another note, I’m still waiting to receive my basic SDK info for flomio jack. I emailed my readerID and made the paypal payment yesterday. I was hoping to get started with it this morning. Would you kindly send me the information I need to move forward with flomio jack basic SDK?

Rilwan

[RichardKeymaster]

Rilwan, I think I’m ready to give a ball park estimate. One thing that threw me off from your last was: “The “hot” spots where scanning occurs should be at the center of the platform.” Are you suggesting that only a smaller subsection of the 12″ x 12″ mat will need to be capable of scanning NFC Tags?

– What is the precise dimensions and geometry of the scan surface?

RE: Basic Flomio SDK.. you can download the latest release (v1.7) from here.

[RilwanParticipant]

Hey Richard,

The scanning surface should be 12″ X 12″. The actual full surface could be 14″ X 14″ (with a 2″ border). Yes, I may consider reducing the size of the hot spot. That would depend on some other factors that I currently beyond my control.

I’ve downloaded the SDK. Do you have instructions on how to integrate it? API documentation? I need to show that your Flomio jack can scan and read the data on a tag by tomorrow morning. What is the fastest way to do that??

Rilwan

[RichardKeymaster]

Hey Rilwan, ok based on:

– 25mm round target tag (NTAG203)
– 3″ range with 15degree tilt angle.
– 12″ x 12″ scan surface (contiguous 92,903mm2)
– 1500ms read latency (only viable option)
– USB power
– Bluetooth tether to Host
– Android host
– ABS plastic construction. Simple design.
– 20 units ordered.

I would estimate this build will run at least $60k but not more than $120k.

If you’re able to relax the following requirements:

– 1″ read range with 15degree tilt angle.
– 6″ x 6″ scan surface (23,225mm2)

I would estimate this build will run at least $30k but not more than $35k

If you’re able to relax the following requirement as well:

– iOS host (no-Android support)

I would estimate this build will run at least $10k but not more than $15k

RE: SDK, please move to this thread for that. Boris will be able to help you there.

thanks,
Richard

[RilwanParticipant]

Richard,

So these numbers sound a lot higher than the 5 – 7K and 10 – 12K estimate you originally provided when we talked. What can we do bring the estimate back down to a 5 – 7K range. Here are the requirements I’m willing to relax:

– contact read with 0 degrees tilt angle.
– 6″ x 6″ scan surface (23,225mm2)

Let me know if that will bring your estimate closer to the 5 – 7K range. If that doesn’t let me know what would.

Thanks,
Rilwan

[RichardKeymaster]

Given that we sorted out the remaining items over the phone, I’m closing this thread for now. If more questions come up, we can revisit.

[RichardKeymaster]

Rilwan, which layout geometry do you prefer for this 3 headed NFC Antenna array?

Option #1:

Option #2:

thanks,
Richard

[MarkParticipant]

Hi Rilwan,

What kind of NFC tags are you reading? Is it something we could help you with? We make a wide variety of tags that could be read by a FloJack reader.

Thanks,
Mark

[RilwanParticipant]

Hey Richard,

I will like to go with option #2.

Thanks,
Rilwan

[RichardKeymaster]

Hi Rilwan, today I learned that your custom order still has not gone out. Reason is that there was an issue with the assembly that failed quality testing. See below:

          

The build is functional but when moving it around the solder joints on the flex traces were failing. We are working to repair and send you something that will work in the field. Apologies for the delays. Will keep you posted.

Richard

[RilwanParticipant]

Hi Richard,

Thanks for the update. Let me know once it ships.

Rilwan

[RilwanParticipant]

Hey Richard,

What is the status of the custom order? Is it ready to ship? Please let me know.

Rilwan

[RichardKeymaster]

Yeah, it shipped Friday. Tracking info here.

[RilwanParticipant]

Cool. Thanks. I will let know you how it runs when I pick it.

Rilwan

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